How to pitch a podcast
Buckle up, friend. It's about to get quite "meta" up in here...
We've been talking all month long about how to grow your audience, increase your reach, and connect with your perfect people through being a guest on podcast interviews.
And now, I'm excited to share with you a brand-new podcast interview on this very topic!
You might remember my Next Level Nutrition Biz Podcast interview last year, all about leveraging a small email list. (No? You can give it a listen right here.)
In short: I had a total blast.
So, when Stephanie Long invited me back to chat about how to pitch a podcast, I was all in!
If you've ever considered pitching yourself as a podcast guest, I think you're gonna love our conversation. We spent over an hour walking through the steps you'll take to pitch yourself, and how this can fit into your overall marketing strategy.
- Why being a guest on a podcast is a solid marketing and growth strategy
- How to choose the perfect podcast topics to speak on
- Which podcasts to be pitching to
- How to write your pitch for success
- How to follow up after you send your pitch emails
Oh, and if you haven't already signed up for my (free) Podcast Guest Prep video training, you can join us right here!
Stephanie's a nutrition biz-building pro, but I genuinely think this episode can benefit ANY health/wellness business. So, tune in to our conversation + please tag us on IG or DM me afterwards to let me know what you think!
Now, without further ado... let's get into it:
Hey there. Welcome to the next level nutrition biz podcast. I'm your host, Stephanie Long business coach for nutritionists. I help nutritionists just like you create and launch their business and sign their first high paying client. In this podcast. You'll learn practical strategies to start and grow your nutrition business that you can implement right away. You'll also hear from a ton of guests who have started their own thriving nutrition, businesses, and share what they've learned throughout their journey. Let's get started. Welcome back to the next level of nutrition biz podcast. So today we are here to talk all about how to pitch a podcast. So how to actually pitch to be a guest on another podcast, leverage someone else's audience and grow your own audience in the interim. So I brought on my friend Michaela to talk about how to pitch a podcast. And let me just tell you a little bit about her.
So, Michaela Bucchianeri is a licensed psychologist in private practice and a copywriter who helps health and wellness professionals connect with their dream clients through genuine, engaging communication, blending the science of psychology with the art of communication, Michaela shares, practical guidance. So you can get clear on your unique value, communicate it with heart, attract and serve the people you love working with most, and actually have fun along the way doing so. So you might remember Michaela. She is a past guest. So this is her second time on the podcast. Michaela, welcome! Thanks so much for being here.
Thank you so much for having me back on your show!
It's a pleasure on my end to have you back. I know people loved your last episode, which I can link to in the show notes. If anybody wants to check that one out and this one I know is going to be great. You know, how to pitch a podcast at something I've been pitched quite a bit of having my own, but I've never actually sat down and write written out like a proper pitch. So I think people are really going to love this conversation. Great. I can't wait. So why don't you just get started for those that don't know who you are, why don't you just give us like a brief background of like who you are a little bit about your business and then maybe how you got into writing pitches for podcasts?
Yeah, absolutely. So my background is in clinical psychology. That's what I went to school for, what I trained for and that's the work that I've been doing in my, in my practice. I, in the course of setting up my own therapy practice and really trying to be strategic and efficient in marketing my practice, I really gravitated toward content marketing toward a very transparent kind of modern, practical, everyday way of communicating about the work that I do as a means of both serving and attracting in these targeted referrals of clients to work with me. And in the process, I just learned so much, I, I truly believe like down to my toes that communicating clearly and meaningfully about the work we do as health and wellness professionals is both an essential skill and a learnable skill. And it's kind of a lacking skill.
When we look at some of the formal ways that we're trained, we're not really given a lot of guidance as far as how to communicate human to human about the work that we do. And so a lot of what I share is designed to help health and wellness business owners, DIY the words on their websites, email marketing and social media, essentially to share what I've learned along the way as I've kind of come about this copywriting thing through the side door. But for folks who are looking to outsource their copywriting for any reason at all, I also offer some one-on-one support. And so one of the ways I kind of joke I've been secretly supporting people is through podcast pitching. And through that process, I am more convinced than ever that it's one of the most powerful, but also underutilized marketing strategies right now for health and wellness business owners. And I learned that there's so many misconceptions out there that are preventing many of us from considering pitching ourselves as podcast guests. So I'm happy to be here today. Help clear some of these up.
Yeah. I mean, I totally am on board with this. This is what I tell a lot of my clients is, you know, it can take a longer time to grow our own audience, right. Especially for just getting started out in business. Yeah. So tapping into someone else's audience that, you know, contain some of your ideal clients, those people you really want to work with, it's really a no brainer idea. But I'm sure, you know, as you're going to teach us today, there is like an art and a science to pitching, and we can even talk about my experience of, you know, some pitches that I've received that kind of turned me off and why that was. Yeah. why don't we just get started with like talking about, you know, what would be the difference for someone to consider of like starting their own podcast versus leveraging, you know, this idea of pitching other people's podcasts? What is the difference in like what are the pros and cons there?
Yeah. It's a really great question. And I think part of, part of what I love about just the idea of podcasts and that's one of those, it's a buzz word, right. In the sense that when we're talking about different platforms, different marketing approaches, we could take, someone will say like, Oh, podcasts are big right now, or you gotta be doing podcasts, but like, what are we actually talking about within that? And as you're saying, there's this, there's this opportunity to kind of gravitate toward one or the other, although you certainly could move into both eventually if you wanted to. But I think a lot of it comes down to first considering what stage of business you're in. And along with that kind of what resources do you have at your disposal? So in terms of financial investment, time investment, headspace, capacity.... How much margin do you have in your week and your schedule? Because when we're talking about starting up a podcast of your own, this is going to be much more front loaded in terms of the amount of startup, like lots of different considerations systems, all of that. And while I think there are a lot of really good, there are a lot of advantages to beginning a podcast as a platform, a hub for content that you're creating it. It's definitely a labor of love. There's a lot of work involved in it. And so, and often a lot of learning, right? We don't just like organically know how to start a podcast not to mention maintaining one over time. And so I think just getting very real with yourself about what do I have, like what's realistic for me right now, if you are kind of at the earlier stages of business.
And as you ask yourself those questions and you're coming up with a lot of No's, like, "No, I don't have a lot of free time. No, I don't actually want to invest in tech set up or anything like that..." then it might make more sense to focus on pitching yourself as a podcast guest on other people's shows. And what's so great about this truly. And again, I see a lot of misconceptions about how much is involved in the process of doing this, but you don't need to go through a special third party. You don't need any fancy introductions made on your behalf. You, you get to go knocking on those doors yourself, you get to pitch yourself as a guest. And so in that regard, while there is some thoughtful planning and preparation, that's going to help make your efforts successful. It's a lot less work, frankly.
It's a lot less time intensive and it can achieve the same sort of aim in the sense that you are pulling in other people's audiences. So when you think about starting your own podcast, right, unless you're doing exclusively a solo show, the idea is you'll be bringing in other guests and there'll be serving your audience well, and then they will help connect their own audiences with you and your podcast when they're featured on your show. That's the hope anyway? Well that same sort of aim could be achieved through pitching yourself as a podcast guest. The, the beauty of it though, is you can be starting from absolute scratch. You are just bringing your time, your energy and your own unique perspective to someone else's existing platform.
I agree with all of that so much. I mean, it is labor intensive coming from someone who has a podcast, it's labor intensive. And you know, it's taken me two years to, you know, get it down to earth science, but it's a lot. And you know, at the beginning it took a lot of time, a lot of effort. And frankly, I didn't know that there was an alternative to, you know, do more of like the pitching to other podcasts. And who knows if I would've gone that route. I mean, I don't have any regrets. I love the podcast and it's helped my business so much, but that, there's an alternative, just like you're saying for those that might not have the time or frankly, the money to start a podcast because there is a financial piece involved, you know, every single month. The one thing that I'm curious about, because I feel like there's some people probably listening and thinking this exact same thing. And, and actually I've had clients say, this to me is, well, I'm just starting out. So why would someone have me on their podcast? You know, I, I'm only new, you know, people don't know me. I don't have a huge audience. Like what kind of value am I bringing? So how do you kind of coach people through that? If they're experiencing that, like, you know, I'm not there yet. And then reminding them that, you know, they can get started now.
Yes. This is a fabulous one to go right ahead and clear up and debunk. Right? For starters, because you asked, this is probably the number one barrier that I've encountered, that I've, that I've heard from other business owners. And it's a total non-starter right. If someone has this belief that they can't, they can't pitch themselves as a podcast guest until they reach point X, Y, or Z, then they're not going to put themselves out there. And so it's a really important one to just call out and clarify. So there is a commonly held belief that people get invited and featured on podcasts when they are well known only when they are well known. And it is while it's true that yes, people who are well-known will receive invitations to be featured on podcasts. When we think about the origin story of this evolution, when we go all the way back to the early stages of someone being a guest on podcasts, people have a much better shot at becoming well-known in their niche if they pitch themselves to podcasts.
So it's like a total causal reversal here. It's like by putting yourself out there and pitching yourself as a guest, you are setting this ball in motion and it's going to pick up more and more momentum at whatever pace you decide, however much time or effort you want to devote to this. And it's going to become this exponential growth strategy where other people will encounter you because you are building gradually at first, maybe, but you are building this reputation in your field as an expert and a thought leader in someone with a real perspective to share. And that is going to, it just can't help, but get the attention of other podcast hosts. And then it just builds from there. And in the meantime, you can further be accelerating it by continuing to pitch yourself. So it just builds and builds. But no, importantly, when we go back to square one, you are the one that gets the ball rolling. You put yourself out there and pitch.
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. It's true. And I mean, even from my perspective, I have had pitches of people that have a smaller audience, but if going to have valuable information to share, and I know it's going to be a fit, I don't really care at the end of the day. Right. I'd rather my audience get high quality, good information than necessarily it be. They have this huge audience they're going to share my podcast with. So that's something to consider as well.
Absolutely. And I'm so glad you said that because it also feeds right into another misconception I can speak to, which is that people, what I've encountered is talking with a lot of really intelligent, really deep thinker business owners who have just sort of this vague idea about why someone would want to pitch themselves for podcasts. Like a lot of times people are walking around with the belief that the goal of it is just to like, quote, get your name out there. You can't see, cause this is just audio, but I'm like gesturing vaguely into the future. It's like, just get your name out there. And the reason that that's not accurate is that it's really not tied to a meaningful goal, right? We're not, we're not just trying to gain fame. We're not just trying to have our name, become a household name. We are trying as, as owners of nutrition businesses, we are trying to reach our specific, our dream client.
And one of the very best ways to do that is to strategically pitch ourselves to a curated list of podcasts. So the goal is never just to get our name out there. The goal is to reach people right, where they already are with a message that will uniquely resonate with them. And as you said, perfectly, that does not require a massive platform of our own. All it requires really is a message that you deeply want to share an idea of who could benefit most from that message. And then just the willingness to connect the dots for a podcast host and help them see the value.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think it goes both ways, you know we might think, well, we don't have a big audience, so we can't, you know pitch ourselves or podcast isn't big enough. So what's the point in pitching that podcast. It's just a small podcast, but you know, I've been on smaller podcasts, like in the past that people will still email me and say, Hey, I heard you on so-and-so's podcast. So I don't think it really has. I mean, obviously the bigger the podcast, the bigger reach, but even small reach with a can still, you know, be meaning one new client that comes into your practice. So that's very valuable to have that kind of, I guess, opportunity to build authority and to build your reach in a really quick way.
Absolutely. And this is one area where in the health and wellness world, especially a service-based health and wellness businesses are so uniquely well positioned to make great use of podcast interviews because I mean, part of it is we have to know a bit about the average podcast listener. So compared to say the average human who is scrolling through social media flipping through TV channels, bopping around on YouTube, the average podcast listener is like a deep engager with their content. Meaning if they're tuning into a podcast overwhelmingly on average, they are tuning into consistent episodes of that podcast. And they're, they're tuning into a large proportion of the episode of that podcast. Like the averages are staggering. I mean, it's, it's often like the bulk of an episode. And if you think about the length of many podcast episodes, we're talking about 30, 45 minutes sometimes an hour.
And so yes, it matters. Ultimately, you know, it's true that, you know, the larger the audience, of course like statistically, you're reaching more people, but I really encourage people, especially when they're just starting out, pitching themselves to think about it in terms of like a discovery or a consultation call. If you get someone who fits the audience of who you're speaking to on a call and you have a chance to clarify questions that they have to align with them and validate what they're struggling with to shape their expectations of the field or the experience of working with you, like how valuable is that? And so when we think about having even a small audience of a podcast and you have done all the front work to make sure that you are you're being featured on podcasts, that reach your ideal clients, how amazing, like what could you do with half an hour or 45 minutes of your dream clients, undivided attention. I think that's where we really start to see the power.
Yeah. It's a very compelling reason to start, right? It's like, like you said, you know, when do you have that time that undivided it with someone who potentially could turn into a client and, you know perfect example is, you know, last night kind of like, you know, like divine timing, just like something you think of something, and then it like somehow comes into your world. And you're like, I was thinking of that thing, education on estrogen dominance, because I didn't get much hormone test. I know that that's something that I'm struggling with right now. And I kept thinking, I need some information on on the testing. And I just happened to come across someone doing a training on overcoming estrogen dominance. And I was like, Oh my gosh. So although this wasn't a podcast, it was an Instagram live, but it was audio video.
So I'm still gonna use this as an example. And it was actually one person interviewing somebody else. So this person just like you're suggesting, came in and leveraged this other person's audience. So the person I was following brought this person in, and now I had experience and communication with this person. I had never heard of that's now talking about estrogen dominance now from just listening to that one you know, IgG live with this, with this person. I had no prior knowledge of, I ended up buying their $45 book, like right away because the authority that got built, I was like, this person is an expert on this topic and it's exactly what I need. And there was no, I don't, I didn't know anything about this person. So I just thought it was worth bringing that in to show like, exactly, like you're saying that power of having that time of like intimacy and conversation and like undivided attention. And really, like you said, answering the questions your ideal client has, but having a reason you're actually showing up on that platform is to like lead them, you know, to the next step of working with you, buying your book, doing your program, whatever it might be. Yeah.
Yes! I love that you frame it in terms of credibility and authority, because gosh, we tend to associate, we take those terms and we, it kicks up all these impostor feelings and we start thinking of like, Oh my, my email list size or my, you know, my follower count or the number of years since I finished my training or maybe I'm still in my training. And we start to think that our credibility and our authority is up for debate when really what builds credibility and authority is a perspective or a value based kind of education contribution that we can make that is compelling, that meets someone at just the right time and serves them well. Like that is what will cause us to be credible in someone else's eyes. And of course, you know, on the backend, we know, we know that we have the expertise, we know that we've done the hard work of educating ourselves and gaining the experience that we need. And so it's simply a matter of trusting that our perspective is intrinsically valuable and then seeking out opportunities to really serve people well.
Yup. A hundred percent, couldn't have said it better! So, why don't we then just now shift into talking about like, what does pitching a podcast look like? How do you know who you're to pitch to? How long is the pitch? What are you saying? Let's just jump right into it. Because I think everybody's now sold on probably doing this. They just don't know how to go about it.
Yeah, absolutely. So that the frustrating maybe, but true answer is that a lot of it comes down to the prep work we do before we actually craft the pitch. And so what I mean by that is if you were back to our kind of vague goal of like, Oh, I just want to get my name out there. What would you do? You'd probably think about the most well-known podcasts you can think of. And you would think like, well, I'm never going to get there. That's why, why would they want anything to do with me? And again, going back though, to how it actually works, if we're just building momentum gradually, then what we actually want to do is think specifically, we want to really drill down to where are my people, my ideal clients, my dream clients, where are they tuning in right now?
Where are they hanging out online? And one really great way to do this, to get this information is to think who are my professional neighbors. Now, when I say this, I don't mean geographically. Who's close to me. I think about it in terms of who are the business owners who were out there in my same space, serving my dream clients, but differently than, than I do. So that could be you know, in the nutrition world, these could be people that work in physical fitness or these could be medical providers. These might be, I mean, it could be anything, right, but you think about people that are like in your same field, but coming at it from a different angle, those people are some really great places to start. Like those pockets of your field are a great place to be looking for podcasts that you could be featured on.
So it's not necessarily about just drilling down to, okay, I am, I am a registered dietician. And so I must, I must appear on all the nutrition podcasts. It's like, that is one direction you could go, but it's really, it opens up a lot more possibilities. When you think about all the different related angles of podcasts that you could be featured on, that would expand your reach, but reach your same people. And so that's one place I recommend is just brainstorming, doing some, some thoughtful, like just, yeah, just do a little bit of a brain dump of like who are all those people for me who are my professional neighbors, who are the adjacent service providers that I can use as an initial list to do some research.
Yeah. That is a fantastic idea because, you know, I just think it's the most practical, right? Like there's no use spending time pitching podcasts that don't have our ideal clients listening. Right. Right. Sure. Maybe you have a friend who has a podcast and just to have more experience, it makes sense to go on and just try it out. But I was sure kind of what you're saying is the majority of your time should be spent like finding those audiences that are adjacent to your own, or I would even also suggest, and I'm curious about your opinion. Michaela is, you know, this could even be another nutritionist, but maybe not serving the exact same audience. So maybe it's like someone who does women's health, that's a podcast topic. And maybe you do like specifically you help people with like their menstrual cycle. So you're yes. You know, it's not like you're in direct competition with this person, but they still have an audience that you can pull from, but it makes sense for them to have a different kind of expert come in to teach their audience.
I completely agree with that approach. We do this a lot in the, in the therapy world in terms of, you know, a lot of the therapists that I've worked with on their copywriting. I mean, there's so many, there's so many different specialties that someone could focus in on as a therapist. And so it's very common to see therapists partnering up around a shared, it's like a overlapping kind of sweet spot of who they serve, but they're coming at it. They're really leveraging each other's areas of expertise and strengths and coming together with this awesome piece of content on the podcast episode, that then would be useful to both of their audiences, to everybody. So, yeah, I think that could work beautifully in the nutrition world.
Okay. So figuring out kind of who, like we might want to appear on as a podcast, like who are those potential podcasts, do some brainstorming, see what's out there. What would be step two then? Are we starting to think about like ideas for what we would actually speak on?
Yeah. So honestly you could even consider that the first step before you even start thinking about who is just reflecting on what. And so one question I think it can be really fruitful to ask yourself is back to that idea of if I could have my dream clients undivided attention for like half an hour or more, what would I most want to communicate to them? So you can think about things like what questions come up again. And again, on my discovery calls, what are some themes that I see in my, in my one-on-one work or in my group programs with my clients, what are some ways that I could shorten the runway of their progress so that like, if they could get clear on this one piece, then they'd be much more likely to be successful in whatever paid program that I'm offering. So back to your example of the Instagram live, you, you likely had the runway shortened to purchasing that book from the thought leader, because you were thinking, okay, that answers a lot of my questions about estrogen dominance.
And now I'm much more likely to hit the ground running with this book. I mean, it also informs you that there even was the book. But it's, it likely is going to make you much more successful in applying what you learn in that book, because you tuned in to that live. It's the same idea with this. So asking about asking yourself those questions based on your work, you could also reflect on other places you're currently creating content. So what, like which content that I shared say on Instagram has gotten the most engagement for my audience. So not just likes, but like thoughtful comments and questions or saves or shares, that kind of thing. What are some topics I'd like to go one level deeper on, right. Again, you're not, you don't have to give everybody the world and answer every question imaginable on an episode, the goal is to kind of take it one, one notch, deeper and contextualize a lot of information that might be out there doing that is going to help.
Usually what ends up happening is it starts like triggering so many different ideas that then you're kind of rushing to just capture it all on paper or on notes app of your phone or whatever, but you just want to get a good brainstorm going. And then another, like one third kind of prong to that brainstorming that I really recommend is just taking note of what are some of the trends in your field right now? Like what are some things happening in the nutrition world that are getting a lot of buzz or attention, but that there is some confusion around, I mean, in the nutritional world, you don't have to look hard for this, right? It's like, what are some things happening that either I want to speak to or I want to provide a different perspective on, or I want to yeah. Just, just bring my own perspective to the table here in service of the public. Like what are some of those things right now? And so of course that'll change over time, but just getting in the habit of periodically jotting down those ideas, the same way you would with your con your regular content that you're creating, right? Like if something big is happening in the world that might prompt you to create some content around it, it's the same thing with brainstorming, what ideas you could pitch to a podcast host.
And so I might be jumping ahead here. I don't want to mess up your step-by-step system, but I'm curious. Would you, would you recommend that they like kind of shortlist some ideas there and come up with like a couple that when they write out this pitch and send this email or whatever it is that they're going to send out, but they only include like a few ideas or should they be giving a list of like here's 10 things that I could speak on, on your podcast?
Yeah, it's a great question. So my perspective is that there's no hard and fast rules here. There's no like, absolutely right or wrong way to do it. But I do think that there's a lot of value in practicing some empathy for the host of this podcast or for the admin, whoever is going to be receiving the pitch. And trying to think of like, how can I make their lives easier? How can I make this just a slam dunk for them? And I think, I think just reminding ourselves, like no one really likes to sift through an epically long email or super long list of different ideas. I think it's really valuable to do one of two things either in, in the body of your pitch, outline three different ideas that you could potentially focus on. So maybe three different topics that you've come up with that. Yes, you've shortlisted from that brainstorming exercise.
Alternatively. So Option B would be to pick one of them. And then instead what you would outline in the pitch or some bullet points of like points you'd want to make underneath that topic in an episode. And the goal is to craft it in such a way that you could actually imagine it being the show notes of that episode. You almost want to have thought it out in such depth, although again, that doesn't necessarily mean length. You want to keep the pitches pretty short and we can talk more about that, but you want to have done the thoughtful planning so that the host is saying, Oh my gosh, I could visualize this complimenting, the other episodes that I've had on my show. Like this would be a real win-win.
Yeah. And I mean, again, being on the receiving end, you've nailed it. Yeah. That's a really good, at least for me, the way that I enjoy receiving pitches is, you know, either being presented with like three ish options and the title, maybe here's like one or two speaking points, or just, like you said, here's one really strong you know, topic I could share with your audience. Here's exactly what I'll talk about. And then even and again, I'm not sure your writing style or how you like to write the pitch, but, you know, you're only providing one option, even just having a note, you know, if you're looking for something a little bit different and you have something in mind, like feel free to let me know. Like that's something that when people write that in the email, I don't mind seeing that because maybe their ideas, like almost what I like, but it's a bit off. So then I feel welcome to write back and say, you know, how about this other idea? So what do you think about that?
I love that. I think when it comes to pitching and honestly just communication in general, I think just keeping it really simple and conversational. And so I love, I love the flexibility that, that communicate. So it's like, here's my plan. Like I have put thought into this and I care enough to present you with something that, that is a cohesive idea and dot.dot I'm flexible, I'm breezy. I'm happy to go wherever, wherever you lead, you know, you are the podcast host. And so, you know, within reason as long as I can as long as it falls within my scope of what I feel I can speak to, I'm happy to brainstorm further. So I, yeah, I think that's a really, it's a really kind thoughtful and honest way to approach pitching and it's strategic. Right? Cause people are going to be more receptive to,
I will say what I don't love is when I don't get any ideas is when they say, Hey, I'd love to come on your podcast. Do you want me on your podcast? You know, it's never been that blunt, but you know, I'm not, I'm like, okay, but who are you? And what you have to offer to the audience. Like, you know, if I have to go digging, you know, even though the podcast is a priority for me, you know, I only have limited amount of time to work on the administrative part of it. So for me receiving a pitch that makes me have to even dig further and go to their website and search to see what could they serve my audience with that to me is one step I wish I didn't have to take. So that's kind of a word of caution. There is you know, if you're going to put the time into pitch, you know, really be like open and communicate well with the information you're sharing.
I love that. I think that's so helpful to bear in mind. And again, it goes back to this idea of like podcast hosts are people too. They have limited capacity. And especially when, you know, I suppose there are some people that are like full-time yeah, of course there are people that podcasting is like their full-time gig, but many people are, are hosting podcasts as a way. It's their content hub. It's a way of sharing valuable content. And of course marketing their businesses in the process. But they're business owners, like they have lots of other responsibilities. And so being able to serve up as completely as we can and as briefly and clearly as we can, our idea, our pitch is a really generous and empathic thing to do. It makes me think honestly, of a lot of the recommendations for being really clear with the copy on your website, right?
So, Donald Miller of StoryBrand calls it "the Grunt Test," I believe. Like, if a cave person landed on the homepage of your website, could they very quickly, like in a minute, grunt back to you what the gist of your business is? It has to be that straightforward and you know, again you're not a cave person as a podcast host, but the point is just because you can get into the weeds and do all this like research on who this person is and why you might want to have them on your show. Doesn't mean you have to. And especially when you consider that many hosts are receiving lots of pitches all the time, you want to do everything you can to prevent your pitch from being just an easy weed out like, well, you haven't even told me who you are. And it, it is amazing as I've talked to other friends of mine who host podcasts of their own, some of the stories are quite shocking, like pitches that are so vague that they don't even name, they don't even use the word podcasts. So some hosts shared, they receive pitches of like, I'd love to collaborate with you. Or I think it could be really fruitful. Like we collaborated. It's like, okay, what'd you have in mind? Oh, did you want to be on my show? Okay. That's helpful to know. We really shouldn't be making podcast hosts work that hard. And so a little thoughtful planning on the front end is just going to ensure that it makes it through those initial weeks.
Yeah. And then I think also, you know, not to go too much into this topic, has there are some other things I'd, I want to make sure we cover, but also, you know, because you know, for me, I've built the podcast, my podcast over the last two years, you know, I've worked really hard at being consistent and building an audience. And when I have somebody on, you know, I'm inviting them into my audience, I'm inviting me into that hard work that I've created. And if I get a pitch that just seems kind of haphazardly put together, I don't know if I will trust that person with my dear audience, that I would somebody else who's crafted an email that shows thoughtfulness that shows that they care. And that shows that they're going to show up and deliver something incredible versus someone who they're just doing this as something to do some way to get their name out there.
I love that point. And you are so right! A lot of times, even when we're being strategic in thinking through podcast outreach, we think in terms, and I think I even used the expression win-win at some point, but it's more like there's this third entity here that the podcast host is the gatekeeper of, and that's the audience, of course like your dear audience, you have put in this work, you've cultivated this community of listeners and being invited into that is an honor and is a sacred thing. And so I think treating it with that respect, allowing that to just naturally come through in the pitch and in all your subsequent communications with a host is just a really, it's just a respectful way to approach that. And that's going to come through as well on the actual episode, if someone treats it as an honor to be invited in, that's going to come through and that's going to help resonate that much.
So would the next step be, you know, we've, we've kind of figured out who we might want to pitch to what we might want to pitch is the next step creating the pitch or is there something in between?
Yeah, I think, I think coming up with maybe like a S sub intermediary little step is organizing the list of, of podcasts that we might pitch to one way. So on a lot of, you know, Apple podcasts is kind of like the original original platform and there are other ones now as well for distributed for distributing podcast episodes. But there, we don't have really great precise metrics of the reach of a particular podcast. And so a proxy that can be helpful at this stage of planning is number of reviews on that platform, right? And so you can look at the number of reviews. You can also look at other things like the audience of that podcast host elsewhere. But if we're really sticking specifically with just the podcast platform itself, looking at how many reviews that podcast has received and kind of organizing based on that.
So hopefully we're coming up with only podcasts that are either within that category of someone who is another nutritionist or someone who's one of those in a complimentary field that also serves my same dream client. So once you've come up with that list, then you can kind of organize it in terms of a hierarchy. And again, it's not, it's not linear necessarily in that way. Sometimes people experience like a surprisingly positive outcome. They might get an invitation to appear on a podcast with a larger audience, and then they don't hear back or they, they get a decline from someone with a smaller audience. So we can't always know for sure, but I do think that's a reasonable way to just start out in organizing your list. And so the idea would be okay, I've identified this first kind of tier of podcasts who I think are within my reach. I think this is reasonable. You know, they don't have a budget reviews yet, which means we can use that as well as a proxy of like how many pitches they're likely receiving. And so I might have a better shot and you might, and you would start that's the idea. And so I think taking it in stages and coming up with sort of like, this is my first pass and we'll see how I do with that. And then going,
Yeah, absolutely. It's like, you can have that, like, these are the dream ones that I want to be on. You know, like if I get on, wow, that's incredible. Here's some other ones I know would be a really great opportunity and obviously like you might want to, and I'm curious your thoughts on this. You might want to spend a couple and see the responses based on like how you wrote the email versus sending out, you know, 50, 60 kind of last email and not even knowing if that original email is like doing its job.
Absolutely. So this is where, you know, even though, yes, this is, like I said, you know, the, the barrier to entry the workload on the front end, it's not as significant as starting a podcast of your own. There is still ongoing work to be done when you're pitching yourself as a podcast guest. And part of that is, yes, this sort of rolling, rolling research on how it's going. So you've got your running list of podcasts and then I recommend tracking and just a simple spreadsheet, Trello board, whatever your organizational tool of choice is organizing the pitches that went out, the date they went out on and then keeping track of the responses that you get. And over time, once you do enough of these you will start to notice trends like, gosh, this topic, this particular pitch on this topic got a lot of traction that really seemed to resonate.
Okay. Now maybe in this next pass, whenever I want to do that, maybe like in the next quarter I'm going to take that topic. I'm not going to bother with these others. Maybe right now, I'm going to take this topic and either pitch this topic to another wave of podcasts, or I'm going to break this topic down into several kind of like subtopics within this topic and see how that does. So it's this iterative process that we're constantly working on, but in the process you'll get hits along the way. And the other thing that will happen as far as the ripple effect is in the meantime, as you're appearing on podcasts, other hosts will hear these interviews. And so you might be approached about that very same topic, and that is completely okay to do, to, to appear on any number of podcast episodes talking about the same sort of topic. And sometimes people that's. Another misconception is they think I have to have a completely unique individually crafted idea for every single podcast that I pitch. And so while the pitches need to be individualized and personalized to that podcast and that podcast host the topic absolutely can be shared across different podcasts because when you factor in the host, their unique questions, the unique audience, the time and place, just how you're feeling that day it's to be a different conversation. It's going to be a totally unique piece of content, which is really great.
Yeah. And actually, I think that's how I might've gotten you on the podcast, but first time, if I'm not wrong, I think I heard you on our mutual friend Jess's podcast. Yes. Yeah. And I said, Hey, actually, do you want to come on mine and do that exact same topic? I think it was brilliant. So I said, yes, it's not a wasted opportunity to do one podcast like that could bring in so many more potential podcast opportunities or open up your bubble so much more.
Absolutely. And when we're thinking as well about that iterative process of like, okay, this topic really seems to resonate. Something else that you'll be doing that I recommend doing as you're researching different podcasts is, is to pay attention to the focus and the style and the format of every single podcast that you're researching. So not all podcasts are created equal. I mean, some of course, of course you're gonna be targeting only podcasts that invite interviews with guests. So you're not going to be pitching podcast hosts that do solo episodes. Although I know from friends who have solo podcasts, that they receive pitches for interviews all the time. It's very interesting that, you know, if you're doing that work, you're going to start to see, gosh, this podcast really seems to put more of a focus on actionable steps that listeners can take. After listening to this episode, this one over here seems to be much more interested in like the origin story of how I came to do this work or the style of how I do this work. And by paying attention to that, you can pull that in and craft pitches that, that really highlight that that's, that's what you could bring to the table. That's what you can contribute. I don't know about you and your, in your experience, Stephanie, like as you receive pitches, do you look for a certain type of angle over the other with regard to kind of personal reflection versus more education? What do you look for?
I probably usually am looking for more education. I do like episodes more actionable, like step-by-step and like I love when my guest comes on and shares just like you're doing like, here's what you actually need to do around it. But I will say, you know, my biggest pet peeve, this happens quite often and this actually makes me feel like the person didn't really do their due diligence to look into women podcast actually focuses on because I get a lot of people pitching me to come on to talk about, about nutrition, so about no hormones or about XYZ. And that's not what this podcast is about. You know, we might touch on that sometimes, but very briefly. So I can really tell, you know, when people have done that little bit of research to even look into the show, even if they're not a listener, that's fine. But just to know that they actually know what my podcast is about, those are really long way.
Absolutely. And I think, you know, I do think there's a trend toward more of that value based like leading with something actionable leading with education, but my not, but, and my perspective is that what makes for the richest most compelling content and just communication in general as, as business owners is to bring a blend of education. Yes. But also some of that, just human story and experience that helps contextualize the education and also validates the experience of the listeners. That's what we're really talking about when we have a podcast that wants some of the background of someone's story, the reason they want that is that listeners, listeners resonate with pieces of those stories. They see themselves in that guest story as well. And so what I really encourage people to think about as they're pitching these very education value based, actionable talking points in a pitch is to also think through what pieces of my own experience either professionally or personally, can I fold into this conversation to highlight examples, to make it more realistic, to resonate with some of maybe the emotional background to this stuff for listeners. It's just, it's one of the sweet spots that I think really make podcasts unique as a medium. I know I was listening to your episode with Jackie silver recently, and I think she did this so beautifully, like speaking to her own experience, but of course focused on here is what you, the listener can do, but here's why this matters to me. Here's how I came to this work. Here's how I see this showing up in the real world. That is what really makes magic happen on these podcasts.
Yeah, absolutely. And I'll be honest, you know, some little insider information is that the episodes that are more like a day in the life of, or more experience, at least for my pocket podcasts, because it's starting your business, like how I started my business or, you know, behind the scenes or any of those things where it's more story-based those actually do download the bass pro. So even I would kind of on your point, if somebody is afraid that maybe they're not like an expert or an authority in, on like a specific nutrition topic yet, maybe your story is so compelling. That that is what you're going to pitch. And, you know, obviously bringing some value in education, but don't like to think that that is not enough to, you know, be the thing that will get you on that podcast.
I mean, I believe that wholeheartedly, I was so pleasantly surprised by that when I started sharing about his copywriting principles and communication tips is I was very transparent with the audience that I was building that like, I am not a trained copywriter. I'm, I'm like you, I'm running a health and wellness business. And, and as an extension of that, I will never encourage you to try any strategies that I couldn't see myself using in the course of a normal workweek. And I've just been so continually amazed by how that breaks down some barriers for people. So to be clear, there are like some outstanding professional copywriters out there who knew from day one, that's what they wanted to do. But I think for the people that tend to gravitate toward what I have to share, it's important to them, like the context around what I'm sharing is important to them. It makes it feel more doable to them. And I think figuring out how you could convey that same sense of doable illness to your dream audience is just, there's real value in that.
Yeah, absolutely. So I know we're getting on a little bit with time here. I want to make sure everybody has some takeaways before they go. Do you want to just quickly maybe give like a couple of tips for them to think about when they're writing the pitch? Like maybe even what the order might look like or just something they can take away and then we can give them maybe a resource to put that I know you're coming up with in your own business that can help them put this into action.
So, when you're thinking through what the pitch is going to look like one just a practical consideration, again, back to empathy for the person reading this pitch I recommend making it non scrollable. So the entire thing can be viewed without having to scroll down in the email at all, if possible. So we're talking brief, we're talking like a few tight paragraphs of a couple of sentences, even what, where I see most people, the labor, the point with a pitch is they think that they need to lean heavy on the flattery or making a case for why they're a super fan of this podcast. And, you know, I, I'm a big believer in bringing honesty to everything that we do, including our pitches. And so it's impossible to be a super fan of every single podcast you're pitching like and podcasts hosts.
I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, Stephanie, but I think they can probably tell if they're being kind of sold, sold a pitch and not in a good way, like you don't have to make a case like with a thesis and supporting statements for why you've listened to every episode. In fact, what I, what I tell people is if you're new to this podcast, then, then you don't have to say anything at all about being such a fan. I would move straight into the value that you would bring. So how to do this. I think it works really well to just jump in kind of setting the scene. So let's use for one example the idea that I gave about kind of trends happening in your field. So let's say there is a particular diet or way of eating. That's getting a lot of press that you're seeing everywhere.
And with your nutrition background, you have some context to you have a perspective on this that you're eager to share that, you know, would be valuable to the right people. What you could do is almost open it like kind of a press release or something that you might see in the news. So it's like "The number one diet of the year was just reported to be X, Y, and Z. We're seeing this pop up here and there. And with that, people are jumping ahead to seize on this diet that is apparently a one size fits all approach to health and happiness. The problem with this is it actually sets certain people up for negative health outcomes. And so it becomes really frustrating and feeds into all kinds of beliefs they have about themselves and their ability to take good care of themselves.
And then you move into why you are qualified to speak to this. And so you could link to, I mean, I recommend you link to any existing online platform you have. So you could you briefly introduce yourself and when you say your name, you just link directly to your website in the pitch. You could link to wherever you're currently creating content online. So you could pitch an Instagram account a blog, if you have one, whatever, and then you move straight into what value you could provide that podcast hosts audience. And that is where back to your idea of, let's say it's one topic and a few bullet points underneath, like I would be happy to to join you on your podcast and clarify who this super famous diet is actually not going to be supportive of and, and why, and what to be on the lookout for, and some great ways to nourish yourself that don't require seizing on a fancy diet.
And then you wrap up and I include, I recommend including somewhere a very direct, like I would love to join you on your podcast. Like, please let me know. And we'll set something up, like, just make the ask clear as day and then sign off. And, and that's your pitch? I mean, I think keeping it very brief, but again, making it so clear so that you're not making the podcast hosts work too hard and you're teeing it all up so that they can visualize like, okay, I could see this being an actual episode.
I like it. Yeah, no, that sounds really good. Really succinct. Well put! My one question would be, do you recommend that they put the actual, like, you know, here are my topics or here is what I could talk on in the email, or do you recommend that they do like an attachment, like a little PDF where it's like, kind of like a little like media release or not release, but a lick of little media kit? What, what's your preference?
Yeah. It's a great question. I mean, I imagine there are probably some podcast hosts that would, that would be open to either my personal style is just to keep it very simple and conversational. So just in the body of an email and the reason for that is it it's one less step for the podcast host to do it's right there. It's not an extra piece of communication that they're having to file or track or keep organized. And it reduces the risk of like tech mishaps and things not loading and that kind of thing. I just think keeping it right there in the body of the email is just a really easy way to go.
Yeah. Keep it short and sweet and yeah. Really easy. And so what would be the protocol then? You know, you've sent the email are you, if you don't hear back right away, would you recommend sending a follow-up email? How many follow up emails? What kind of the process there?
There are some different opinions on this that I've come across. I think for sure waiting, waiting a bit before that initial one, just to allow for someone else's like for the podcast hosts process, you don't know how often they are, they're filtering through pitches that they've received. We don't know. Yeah. We just don't know what someone else's schedule is like. And so I think we definitely don't want to hound podcast hosts, but things also fall off the radar and we want to make known our excitement about this. And so I think waiting a couple of weeks and then following up is totally reasonable. I recommend like two follow-ups max. And a lot of that will come down to just, just what else you have going on as well. Like again, if you're looking to do this as your primary marketing strategy with reaching other audiences, you might have a lot more capacity to manage all of these follow-ups. If not you might decide that you're going to do one follow-up and then just let it go.
Hmm. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Again also coming from the perspective of having received pitches and being busy and then not getting back to them. I love that idea of like, you know, even a week, I would say, or like you said, a couple of weeks, you know, I've had somebody send a pitch two days later, Hey, I sent the pitch a few days later. Why are you not emailing me? You know? So remembering exactly what you said earlier. Like, you know, when we're pitching to people, these are people that are busy and just because you might not be hearing back doesn't, it's not a reflection on you a lot of the time. So like give them a grace to know that it might take a little bit of time. And if at the end of the day, the person doesn't get back, then they don't get back. And I mean, it's unfortunate, but I think there's many other podcasts you could pitch if that ends up being the case.
Definitely. And that's where it comes down to just your own, even a simple organization system, a way of tracking these communications. It's easy to think in terms of like black and right. Like either, either I land the interview or I don't, but oftentimes you'll get a very gracious response that says, you know, our, our calendar is, is booked out for the next year or the next half year. We'll hold on to your information and we'll be in touch or please follow up with us, you know, next year or whatever. Whatever information you get back from them, I recommend just plopping the body of that into your spreadsheet or whatever you're using to track that so that you can be making a note for yourself, like, okay this time and it we're in six months, I'm going to follow back up with them, maybe with a fresh idea.
Yeah. Love that. Absolutely. So why don't we just wrap up then? That was fantastic by the way, I should preface it by saying that was really helpful. Thank you for sharing. Yeah. Thanks for sharing like the actual kind of strategy for how to make the pitch. But I know that there are so many nuances to this so much more that can be done, you know, with probably more of like the market research part and the actual pitch writing. So I know you've come up with where you're in the process of creating a really incredible resource for podcast pitching. So why don't you just tell everybody listening a little bit more about that and then where they can find you?
Yes, I would love to. Thank you! I'm putting, as we speak, the finishing touches on a mini course focused on just this: Pitching yourself as a guest on podcasts! And it's specifically tailored to health and wellness business owners. And there are some really specific ways that we have a lot to benefit from this opportunity. And also some ways we can be uniquely strategic to make the most of our efforts. And so the course itself is going to be totally self paced and it's going to cover absolutely everything from the first inkling of an idea of a pitch all the way through how to make sure that listeners from these awesome interviews that you're doing find their way back to you and write are teed right up for everything that you have to offer. And so it'll cover all of that. But to kind of put a toe in the water, if you're feeling excited about this or curious about how to get started I've rounded up some resources to help you organize yourself and really do some of that initial work to prep for your purse, your first or next podcast pitch.
So I will make those available on my website. If you go to https://www.drmichaela.com/nextlevel2 (the number two, and that's that's to differentiate this episode, because this is our second conversation on your podcast, Stephanie!) So, if you go to https://www.drmichaela.com/nextlevel2, I'll round up the resources right there.
Perfect. And I will also make sure that those are in the show notes for you guys. I know I mentioned before we started recording that, you know, I might be joining that mini chorus because to be totally transparent, that's, you know, my next step is, you know, I've done the podcast, I'm continuing to build my own podcast, but pitching others is a really great strategy as we now are all sold on and we all know why, and that's what I'm going to be doing next. So you might see me in there if you end up joining as well.
It's really exciting. You have so much to share. I love that!
Well, thanks again, so much, Michaela, for coming on. Again, awesome conversation, super actionable. Step-By-Step which now, you know, that I love that's my favorite type of podcast episode. So I appreciate it. And yeah, just thanks again for coming on.
Oh, thank you so much, Stephanie! It's a treat to chat with you, always.
You as well. Thanks for listening in. If you liked this episode, feel free to leave us a review, share the episode with a friend or tag us on social media, catch you next time.
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